I recently made some (fairly large) prints of some of my photos for a friend who's opening a new clinic. Naturally I wanted to get them matted and framed. After checking out what that cost, I decided to do it myself. Then I discovered that local framing shops (Aaron Bros, Jo-Ann, etc.) all want $30 each to cut the mats I need. Thirty bucks. For a piece of frickin' cardboard. Of which I absolutely need eight and could use as many as thirteen. That's in the range of $250 to $400 for frickin' cardboard.

Thank God for the Internet. Documounts had matting for under $10 each, delivered. That's still too much to pay for a piece of frickin' cardboard, but my anus does not feel quite as brutally stretched by Documounts as it might have by some other vendors. As a bonus, they're in Portland, so shipping won't take forever.

As an aside, some of these outfits warn you it takes them 3-4 days to get around to cutting your custom mats, not counting shipping time. You know they have computerized mat cutters that can cut 'em in like a minute, right? If they're hand-cutting, it could take a little longer, but machine-cutting is so much faster and more accurate, why would you hand-cut? In any case, cutting pieces of frickin' cardboard is not brain surgery; there is no way anyone has a three-day backlog of mat-cutting.

Yeah, yeah, I know, you get what you pay for. But it's still a piece of frickin' cardboard. And it shouldn't cost more because you left out something, like acid, which shouldn't be there in the first place because it eventually ruins the art, thus making the mat unsuitable for the purpose for which it is being sold, i.e., matting artwork. Not ruining the art should be a basic feature here, not one you have to pay extra for.

Some day I'm going to try selling some of my photos and then this post is going to come along and bite me in the ass because people will think I'm being unprofessional. In reality, I'm just trying to educate. When you buy a nice photo to hang on your wall, the photographer paid $5-$20 to have the actual print made (depending on size) and quite possibly four or five or even ten times that amount for the framing and matting depending on how fancy it is. (A lot of fine art photos are double-matted at $30 a mat.) A frame and mat certainly do enhance the presentation of the art, but there's really no excuse for a piece of frickin' cardboard to cost more than the print it covers. You should be outraged that the artist is forced to pay so much more for the presentation than for the actual art. Because, after all, he's passing that cost on to you.

Bitching about the price of art is petty? That's exactly the attitude that lets companies get away with charging $30 for a piece of frickin' cardboard. I'm not saying that having something beautiful to look at isn't worth money -- quite the reverse, actually. It'd just be nice if more of the money went to the artist and less went to cardboard manufacturers and cutters.

Re: photo matting

There are 23 messages in this thread, displayed in the order they were posted.

Keith 6/23/2005 11:38:35 AM Pacific

So what about cutting it yourself? Doable? How much would the raw uncut stock cost you? How much for the tools?

Jerry Kindall

6/23/2005 11:43:10 AM Pacific

A cutter's about $100. Raw material locally's about $10-$15 a sheet ($5-$10 a sheet from Documounts depending on type). The biggest problem I have, I guess, is that the mats I need will require a full sheet of matting board -- if I was matting smaller pieces, I could get multiple mats from a single sheet, and the cost of the raw materials would be lower.
If I was going to do a lot of this, I'd definitely learn to do it myself. I'm kind of short on time here, though.
I sure am ranting a lot lately, aren't I? It seems I rarely post anymore unless I have something negative to say about something. It's gratifying to see my RT042 rant getting Google hits, though.

Scott Kirwin

7/7/2005 6:32:53 AM Pacific

Jerry
8-10 mats is a lot and cutting mats isn't difficult. All you need is a heavy straight edge (metal preferred), a ruler and a Dexter mat cutter ($25).
Use a light pencil lines to mark the measurements. You will cut at the points of intersection.
Cut from the back. Make sure the bevel is pointed towards the inside of the matt.
Measure the picture width and height (pW, pH).
Measure the mat width and height (mW, mH).
You will measure from the outside edges of the mat in by the following:
for width: (mW - pW)/2
e.g. (16-12)/2=2
Point 1 would be 2 inches in from the Left and Point 2 from the Right.
for height (mH-pH)/2
e.g. (12-9)/2=1.5
Add .25 to the bottom and subtract same from top. Perfectly vertically centered pictures look wrong, so we move the pic up a bit to compensate for the illusion.
Point 1 would be 1.75 inches from bottom, point 2 1.25 inches from top.
That's it. Trust me it's easier to do it than write about it.
Cutting mats does not involve magic. Once you learn it you will never forget it and you will save a bundle everytime your wife wants to mat a new pic.

Scott Kirwin

7/7/2005 6:33:47 AM Pacific

Make that outside of the mat for the bevel.

photographer

7/7/2005 7:20:43 AM Pacific

FYI,
If the photographer paid $5-20 to have a print made, acid in the board wouldn't make a whole lot of difference anyway. 90% of photographs are chemical color C prints which are not archival. Unless you are talking about an inkjet print [and its archival qualities are not without doubt as some of my papers have yellowed and I don't care what Epson SAYS] regular phtographic prints are cheap machine made pieces of resin coated paper. If you're talking about a silver gelatin print than that's a whole new ball game and $5-20 a print doesn't cut it.
Most cuts are about $1 + a cut - x4 that is $4 per sheet plus the cost of the raw material plus the overhead cost of running the little business plus a bit of profit to invest in new and better machines.
Learn to do it yourself. Although you don't seem to have time for this, as Scott writes, it ain't rocket science, it just requires a bit of skill to be precise and lots of practice. Eventually, you'll wind up seeing that labor has value and costs quite a bit more than the raw material of cardboard.

Jerry Kindall

7/7/2005 12:49:21 PM Pacific

I don't know if Fuji Crystal Archive paper is actually archival or if they just call it that, but that's what my prints were printed on.
I could cut the mats myself, I guess, if I had a place to do it. I'd rather have them machine-cut, though, as that will undoubtedly be more accurate. Labor has value, sure, but the labor is seeking out and taking the pictures, not cutting pieces of cardboard.
I framed eight pieces and they did come out quite nicely. Everyone oohed and ahhed when I brought them into the clinic. I hadn't realized what an improvement framing made, frankly -- even I was impressed, and given how critical I am of my own work, that ain't easy to do.

Liesl

7/7/2005 2:22:22 PM Pacific

I'm no great artist or photographer, but I just have stuff printed in a size for which I can buy a precut mat. They are WAY cheaper, and I can then also get a premade frame rather than buying a specially made one. Agian, way cheaper. I even buy white mats and paint them whatever color I need. Then again, you probably made bigger prints than you could get precut mats for anyway. But whatever.
BTW, your photos are gorgeous.

Jerry Kindall

7/7/2005 3:17:29 PM Pacific

Yeah, for smaller prints I actually like to go without a mat -- instead I'll print with a white border on letter-size paper and frame that. I've found some quite nice letter-size frames at places like Target. 4:3 ratio images end up with a nice 1" border all the way around when printed at 6.5 x 9. Of course, with the SLR, my images are 3:2 not 4:3, which kinda blows that concept out of the water.
I didn't see any precut mats for 18 x 24 or 20 x 30, which were the two sizes I made.
I had no trouble with the mats I got from Documounts. Better prices than anywhere else I've found and no extra-special shipping charges for oversized matting. I recommend them.
BTW, thanks for the comment about my photos. I'm very critical of them. I'm beginning to see now that that's because I hardly ever print them, but only look at them on screen. Printed large and framed nicely, they have more impact that I'd expected. Hey, I'm not bad!

Doug

10/2/2005 9:53:38 PM Pacific

Just wondering, did you charge your friend for the photos? If you were to sell your photos would you base it on the cost of paper? I mean, it's just friggin paper! You can't tell me that somehow, because you took your camera and snapped a picture that the picture would be worth more that the cost of the paper it is printed on. Judging by the photos on your site, you are a good photographer and should be able to make money on your creations, but don't deny an artist with a different talent like framing that chance to make a profit!

Jerry Kindall

10/2/2005 10:11:50 PM Pacific

Sorry, but I maintain a job that can be done more competently by a machine than by a human is not and can never be art. The cardboard itself is made in a factory. Not much art there either.
There is perhaps some art in choosing the matting, but perhaps only 1% of the art involved in the photography -- and I do that anyway, not the framing shop. There's no reason I should give them a 150% markup. There's more art in custom framing, I suppose, or at least craft, but we didn't want anything fancy for this project.
If you don't see much difference in value between a photograph and a piece of colored cardboard with a hole cut into it, well, perhaps I should start selling pieces of colored cardboard with holes cut into them; it's a lot easier than making photographs, and apparently fairly lucrative...
I didn't charge my friend for the photos, but they are for sale. They are much more affordable than they would have been if I'd paid stupid amounts of money for the frames and the matting.
Don't get me wrong -- nice matting and framing does enhance the presentation of a photograph and therefore its value to a potential buyer. But nobody can possibly tell the difference between my $10 mats from DocuMounts and the $25 ones I could have bought at Aaron Brothers or another shop. Multiply $15 in savings by twelve pieces, and you're talking about actual money -- enough to get another couple of prints made, matted, and framed, in fact. Since it may be a while before I sell anything, I'll keep that in my pocket.

Gordie

12/29/2005 4:29:26 AM Pacific

Hey Jerry . . . great photos! I was Google-ing around looking for a source of matting that could be custom ordered and sent to me. Thanks for the tip on Documents. I just placed an order from them. We'll see how much I like them. I am overseas (in Germany) and finding the same conveniences we just run to the store for in USofA is sometimes a challenge. Keep up the great photography!

Dave Sherman

1/6/2006 9:38:49 AM Pacific

Just read through your post. I have about the same problem that you started with. I have some abstract photos that I manipulated. I want to find a way to market them and need someone to look at them.
First, I want to mat them so they don't look like cheap prints. The first one I had printed was 12X18. I plan on going even bigger if necessary.
BTW, I use MPIX online printing. Their metalic finish paper is fantastic.
Several years ago I was talked into buying an Alto mat cutting system. About $150 for everythingl. Got to make the damn thing pay for its room and board now.
I have to trot down to the local art supply store, pick the RIGHT COLOR MAT according to the girlfriend, and cut it.
After all, it's only a friggin piece of cardboard.
Thanks for the advice.

Rex	7/8/2006 1:00:53 AM Pacific

I started out making money shooting pix, and now I make money cutting mats. And selling mat cutters to persons just like yourself, who are shocked and dismayed at the high price of matting. But I have seldom, if ever, encountered the notion that "it's just a piece of frickin' cardboard". A good mat A) protects your artwork, B) enhances the presentation of your artwork, and C) adds to the dollar value of your artwork. If doing this work yourself seems like too much effort, you might consider cutting pix out of magazines rather than going to the work and expense of shooting them yourself. Your suggestion that there's no art involved in the process of matting photographs simply indicates a lack of familiarity with the process. And you admit that. I would suggest that you follow the advice of your commenters and buy a matcutter, like we all did, and learn to enhance your photographs for a fraction of the cost of having a "machine" do it. I think you will quickly discover that the craft of matting and framing art has a substantial and rewarding amount of art in it, and will ultimately make you a better photographer.

Monte Loomis

7/22/2006 8:18:57 AM Pacific

I was smiling while I was reading. My thoughts exactly! Mats cost way to much. I usually do 8x10 prints and the cost is 5.00 for the print and over 15.00 for a double mat. The problem with the precut mat is poor color selection.

Gail Kovacs

8/10/2006 12:52:05 PM Pacific

OMG!!!! I am trying to learn how to do this very same thing for a Christmas project and much of this information is very useful. I do have to say though that I agree with so much of what you wrote. A simple little good deed shouldn't cost a bizillion dollars. Besides your comments just made my day and had me laughing out loud at work--how inappropriate!!

Jon

9/13/2006 9:55:44 AM Pacific

While I found your rant highly amusing and would love to agree, I've worked in the mat cutting business long enough to understand that most of what you say isn't true. Certainly matboard is cardboard, however cardboard naturally has acids in it. What you are paying for is the chemical processes to treat and remove them so that it will not degrade your artwork (for some years at least, it will eventually degrade). You can get cotton matboard (rag mat) which is much higher quality and naturally doesn't have any acidic properties, however you pay much more for this. Combine that with the coloring processes, and it is much more expensive than simple frickin' cardboard (which you will find for cents a piece).
Also if a mat takes a minute to cut (it actually takes less, but combined over the day with blade replacements, quality checking, and human speeds, it averages longer) and you have thousands of mats to cut in a day for hundreds of orders, it's not hard to imagine a backlog.
I like the analogy to paper. You can buy a 100 sheets of paper for a dollar, but to get chemically treated specially made photo paper, you'll pay a lot more. It's still just paper though.

Jerry Kindall

9/14/2006 4:50:50 PM Pacific

OK, then explain why Documounts can sell it so cheap, for literally a third of the cost of the local framing store.
I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium over regular cardboard and I understand what it's for. But Documounts is selling matting, presumably profitably, for $10 a piece, cut and shipped. That means they are probably paying more like $5, labor included, for it. What exactly does the local store offer that justifies a 500% markup when Documounts gets by on mere 100% margin? Someone's gouging.

Jon

9/15/2006 1:56:16 PM Pacific

I'm not sure of the size of Documounts, but I'd imagine it all comes down to volume. If a company can buy skids and skids of mats versus your local framer who's buying maybe one or two sheets, you're going to get it a lot cheaper. Plus being larger means you can invest in better computerized equipment thus cutting labor costs. I don't doubt that gouging happens though (as in any industry). Keep in mind, especially in the matting and framing business, buying online might demand a minimum order (Documounts has a $50 minimum), so there's one disadvantage (and another reason for lower prices). It's wholesale vs. retail.

dasmb

1/3/2007 12:08:20 PM Pacific

I agree with both of you.
A custom framing store stocks hundreds of sheets of different styles, colors and archival qualities of matboard. It comes in very large sheets. The overhead of just warehousing all of this is immense, and added into the price. The volume is low, the orders very precise and there's a lot of waste -- the result is, you'll pay the same for a 3"x4" sheet of pale rose archival matboard cut in some intricate pattern as you would for a sheet of black in 20x30. The cost there isn't the board, it's the expertise and the on-demand nature of the sale.
To a family attempting to frame a single work of art or a treasured document, the deal is pretty good. For us, it's a bunch of crap we don't need.
I recently cut my first mat. I did a shitty job. But I enjoyed the flexibility of being able to alter the presentation viewport in any way I liked. I intend to cut all my own mats for at least the next three months.

Deb

6/1/2007 6:02:34 AM Pacific

I am looking for a camouflage matting for a cross stitch pattern I am working on. Any ideas of where to find such a creature? I have checked the local stores, they don't carry camouflage matting.

JIM

6/14/2007 12:03:16 PM Pacific

Honestly I don't consider cutting mats or framing a picture ART and I own a framing business. I think if the mat has be enhanced (french matting) or if the frame has been customized by carving or using composite material it may come close to ART. What I don't understand is the reference you used in an earlier post where you stated that something done more competently done by a machine cannot and never will be art. A landscape is painted by a painter but is done more competently by a camera which is a machine. Therefore by your own logic photography is a mechanical process and is not ART. I do consider your choice of medium to be ART but I think you should use better judgement in assesing what others do when you think that only people who perform in a medium acceptable to YOU are ARTISTS. By the way if you shop around you can find custom shops like mine who do not believe thay are curing CANCER and will not charge you as such. I agree that most picture framers are wildly overpriced. Good luck in you mat cutting adventures.

Ross

6/15/2007 11:15:06 PM Pacific

G'day Folks, While I think Jerry raises some very good points, I also think that most of the "Professional" matters have also put forward valid points. I intend learning to mat my own pictures as I collect Autographs and want to be able to mount them with Mini posters from movies, etc. What decided me to try and cut my own mats was....I purchased a Martin & Lewis Autographed display containing an 8x10 picture and two separate Autographs.
This cost me $50 (US) I took it to a local store to get a price on a frame and asked them what it would cost me to have a mat cut for a similar display. The answer? A whopping $90!! Now that is only to have the mat cut!! Nothing mounted Almost TWICE the cost of buying a completed item.
Ok, so a fair profit is the right of every business, but robbery is robbery, even if these people don't use a gun!

Michael W

11/26/2007 7:27:13 PM Pacific

Many of the large scale mat companies are now using higher speed cutters that unfortunately leave a bevel on the outer edge of the mat. This is stupid if you are NOT framing the artwork, at least initially. I enter photography contests where they want matted and mounted unframed prints. Now, when you have a beveled outside edge and you adhere it to your backboard, it looks terrible compared to having a mat and backboard both flush. Second, the beveled outer edge is quite sharp and can cut your fingers. Also, since it is thin on the bevel, it is easily dinged up. So, I prefer to have my mats cut manually and will pay a frame shop more money because the one I go to makes perfect, sharp cuts so that the window has perfectly sharp corners. Believe me, it makes a difference to someone who is critical and is about to pay $300 which is generally what I charge for my 16 x 20 pieces. With photography, I only use white rag mat, 8 ply.....off white is okay, also, but no other color should be used with photographs. I use thick metal frames, either matte silver or matte black for black and whites. I sometimes will use a matte gold or matte brass for color photos in addition to the black and silver. Always use linen tape to attach your prints and only to the top and top sides and for your hinge at the top. I use archival mat board which I cut myself and always use UV filtered plexiglas. I use Epson 2200 and 2400 printers and Epson archival inks and Epson Luster, watercolor, or pro matte papers.....and despite what someone said previously, I have never had any yellowing or fading in five years. The yellowing WAS an issue with some of the earlier Epson inks and printers, I think the 820 was one of the printers. But, Wilhelm Research which does excellent, meticulous investigation of inks and papers shows that the combinations I use will last 60-300 years depending on the combinations of inks and papers I use. Go to their website and see what they have to say about different inks and papers. www.wilhelmresearch.com. Also, I generally limit my photos to editions of 10 or 45 and I get $125 for my prints. Silver gelatin prints would go for much more. The one thing you have to be careful of with inkjet prints is that they scratch much more easily than do silver oxide prints. However, if you want, there are places that will take your digital image on disk and print silver oxide prints for you.

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Re: photo matting